mQvalve - Installing And Set Up

[yuu]

Somethings for the search to hit on:  mqvalve mq-valve qvalve q-valve mq

This if for an Eclipse E1, sorry Race fans.  Most of the info will still be the same though.

I have some pix, but they arent' really needed if you are at all familiar with a cocker.  If you need a visual guide, let me know and I'll post the photos.

Third, valuable links:
Version 1.3 of the mQvalve directions
Unoffical, but very informative mQvalve page

For Reference - My Set up:
GRIP FRAME:  Zero-B Worr-blade
BODY STYLE:  Karnivor
RAM:  Nexus
QEV: Yes
BOLT:  Stock worr-bolt
LPR:  Tickler
LOADER:  Reloader-B
IN-LINE REG:  STO @ approx. 290 psi

Son- 3.4 ms
Cdel - 4.1 ms - As low as versions 1.10 firmware can go
Conn - 50 - set high to prevent misfeeds w/o the eye
Coff - 30 - Have not tested lower settings at this time, but I suspect it could be set lower.

For Reference - My Set up Mark II:
GRIP FRAME:  Zero-B Worr-blade
BODY STYLE:  Karnivor
RAM:  Nexus
QEV: Yes
BOLT:  Stock worr-bolt
LPR:  SCM III
LOADER:  Reloader-B
IN-LINE REG:  2-Liter Plus @ approx. 280 psi

Son- 3.0 ms
Cdel - 4.1 ms - As low as versions 1.10 firmware can go
Conn - 50 - set high to prevent misfeeds w/o the eye
Coff - 27 - I expect this can be lowered even further.

All of these settings are aimed at getting a velocity of 285 fps.

mQvalve - what is it:
For those of you who don't know already... It's a Solenoid driven valve for any e-cocker.  It repalces the entire bottom tube internals.  So the valve, hammer spring etc are all removed.  You velocity is now goverened by a combination of inline pressure and valve open time.  The valve open time is set by the SON setting on and Eclipse e-frame.

Tools needed:
Valve tool
A variety of allen wrenches

The Job,
Internals:
First off, you need to remove the internals from you lower tube.  Anyone who is proficient with working on their cocker should be able to do this.  All the internals come out, all the springs, nuts hammer etc.

Prepping the frame:
Next, remove the frame from the maker completely.You will need to remove the whole sear and sear tipping solenoid assembly.  There is a set screw that holds in the sear pin, and two that hold in the solenoid that most be removed to free up those parts.  You'll need to keep the solenoid retaining bracet around, since two of your grip screws attach to it.

Once those set screws are removed, the sear pin can be easily pushed out and the sear removed.  Next, simpley lift out the solenoid retaining bracket and set it aside.  To remove the solenoid (remember to remove its TWO set screws) rotates it towards you a bit, to clear the wiring from the frame and slip it out the top of the frame.  

Replace the retaining bracket, and you're done with this stage.

Installing the mQ:
This is pretty simple and the instructions enclosed with the valve are very good, so I'll be brief here.

Drop in the valve and orient it.  Next thread the wires from the pilot out of the groove for the lug, and drop the pilot in.  Take car not to twist the pilot, as you can shear off the wires.  Next drop in the spacer and tightent the assembly with your IVG.  Make sure to brace the pilot so it doesn't rotate and chop off the wires.

One thing to note it that my valve didn't line up 100% at first.  There was about 1 mm of the front of it showing thought the guide plug hole.  No biggie at all, my stock valve even did this.  But after being seated for a bit, with pressure it lighed up perfectly.  

Reassembly:
With the valve in reattach the frame.  You'll need to thread the mQvalve wires into the frame, though the area where your sear solenoid used to be.  With the coking noid wires and eye it can be a little though to make sure all are in place and none are getting pinched - so just take your time.  Connect the valve to the sear noid port on the board.  Install your cocking rod to stabilize the back block.

*karni owners!
You'll need to cut the cocking rod from your hammer :evil:. I've order one from WGP, though my local store.  But it's been more than two weeks with no sign of it, so I just cut my original.  If you know you've got the lead time, try to order a rod from WGP.

It needs to be 1.5 inches long, measured from the threaded end that attached to the back block.  If you are OCD like me, you can polish the rod.  Also be sure to grease the rod and interior of the spacer - I used my trusty Wurth 2000 for this.  

Gas n go:
So, it's hard to tell if the valve is working unless you gas up.  It is VERY quiet with no gas.  If you crank up your SON and disconnect your cocking solenoind, you can hear a tiny tiny noise in the body.

Initally set you SON to 4ms and your inline to the low 200s.  After you set the SON, turn off your frame for now.  Connect your gas.  Don't be shocked if you hear a hiss at first.  There are some accounts of the valve no fully sealing at pressures below 250ish.  Not to fear.  Slowly turn up the pressure on the inline.  If it was hissing, it should go away.  

While you are turning it up, do it slowly, and listen for a hiss to develop.  Over about 350 psi the valve is desigend to blead pressure to protect its self.  So Stop at that hiss-point and back the pressure back 1/8+ turn.  Backing it off a bit will allow it a range of adjustment, up and down,  thought the inline.  If you keep it all the way up, the only way to go is down.

Turn on the frame.  Now, when you pull the trigger, you'll get a good solid *POP* when you pull the trigger.   If so, the valve is up and running right, and you'll need a chrono to finalize you settings - but were not done with the stuff you can do at home.

Setting the LPR.  Now that you have removed the hammer and main spring, the force needed from the ram has gone down drastically, so you can turn you LRP way down.  To find a good setting will be somewhat of a trial and error process, but a good rule of thumb is to:
1.  Turn the LPR way down
2.  Set the frame to CLASSIC
3.  Pull and hold the trigger.
4.  Turn up the LPR until it can move the bolt back past the breech.
5.  Once you hit that setting in step 4, turn it up 1/8th to 1/4 th turn more to give you the speed you need and prevent shoot down in the pneumatics.
6.  Test test test - since this is all new, a little trial and error testing will be needed.  Remember that if your LPR is set to low the speed of the bolt will slow also, reducing the number of cycles per second, and possible causing blow back and/or velocity issues because the bolt hasn't come fully forward.  Plus testing is fun, since now you've got a cocker with no kick.

Once you get the LRP set, you'll still find its super low.  Chopped balls will basically cease to be an issuse, since you'll have a super pincher now.  

To give you an example, I was able to stick my figer down my feed neck and pull the trigger a few time with no ill effect - though I don't recomend this and don't want to hear about it if you do it and get hurt.

Final frame settings:
For this phase, you'll need a chrono and paint.

Since there is basically no delay between the trigger pull and valve opening you'll be able to lower you CDEL setting w/o blow back.  Settings will vary.  But since the valve acts so quickly, they recomend a slightly longer closed bolt time- which is your COFF setting.  So it's a bit of a trade, lower CDEL but higher COFF.   Again, these will vary from person to person.  Check here for other folks settings

Too low a COFF setting can cause velocity drop off  as you shoot a string.  PBX recomends that you set the COFF to 30 to begin.  Then lower the setting in stages until you do note a drop off.  When you have drop off, raise the COFF to the previous stages setting.  Rember that you should set the COFF before you set the CDEL

For your CDEL, I'd follow the instuctions written up by Vantrepes of Moody Paintball.  on testing you CDEL settings.  

Setting the velocity:
Velocity is set using a combination of the inline pressure and the SON setting.  If you velocity to too low, bring up you inline as much as you can/need to until the valve leaks.  If velocity is still too low, you can raise the SON setting to inclrease the valve open time.  

Play Time!
For Reference - My Set up:
GRIP FRAME:  Zero-B Worr-blade
BODY STYLE:  Karnivor
RAM:  Nexus
QEV: Yes
BOLT:  Stock worr-bolt
LPR:  Tickler
LOADER:  Reloader-B
IN-LINE REG:  STO @ approx. 290 psi

SON- 3.4 ms
Cdel - 4.1 ms - As low as versions 1.10 firmware can go
Conn - 50 - set high to prevent misfeeds w/o the eye
Coff - 30 - Have not tested lower settings at this time, but I suspect it could be set lower.

So, it took me a while, but I finally made it to the field.  I've got to say, I likey!  After a bit of time at the chrono messing with pressure v.s SON settings I settled on:
SON: 3.4 ms
PSI:  about 290 psi (micro guages aren't the most accurate things)

These settings gave me a velcoity in the high 280's.  There were some fluctiuations in the velcocity - but I must note that I just rebilt the reg, which could easily have an effect on the consistentcy.  Also, many people have noted a break in period on their mQ.  Either way, the velocity swings were not huge, and did seem to decrease as the day went on.  Unfortunetly I wasn't able to hit a chrono at the end of the day.

The action is now very smooth.  The kick is virtually not existent, but the speed remains.  I noted groupings at a distance did close up some, due to less deflection of the barrel from shot to shot from mechanical action.  Good stuff.  

Things to note, I don't think it was a valve problem, but a loader problem, but I did not a number of pinches (no chops at all) during the day.  More than I had previously noted.  I'll be doing some more invesigating on this.  

But I've got to repeat, that I think it was a loading problem, and not anything to do, directly the with the valve.  If fact the fact that I was able to run a lower LPR setting, due to the valve, probably saved me some chops.

Efficiency
Using a Crossfire 70/4500 I was hable to get 1500-1600 shots off of a fill.  The thanks was initally filled, left to cool and then topped off to 4500 psi.  I kept notes on the pressure and my shot count at a couple points during the day.  The numbers (by not means super accurate) would seem to indicate that the efficiency increased a bit over that day.  This is probably attributable the the valve breaking in, and, as noted above, my freshly rebuilt reg breaking in.  Either way, 1500-1600 shots off a fill aren't bad numbers at all, and there may well be room for improvment.

When I did my inital set up, I tuned the SON and pressure combination of the most stable velocity - not the highest pressure and smalls valve dwell in the hopes of maximizing efficency.

If you have any questions or want to see photos post em... I'll do my best to answer.

[drg]

This is great information yuu, and I will definitely consult it when I finally get my mQ in (I'm near the bottom of the list). In the meantime, I've been doing a lot of thinking about the difference in settings between normal valves and mQ valve, and came up with this diagram:

http://www.halfcocker.com/mqtimeline.gif

Have a look at it and see if it makes sense. If I have made any errors, let's discuss them.

[yuu]

That really looks about right.  I don't see anything that jumps out as contrary to my understanding.  I won't say it's 100% correct, since I didn't design or make the thing.  So I can't be a final arbiter, but it looks almost right to me.

The CON time will still be the same, since that should be goverened by the hopper under most conditions.  So this is the only place where your diagram looks like it has a flaw.

But the CDEL can be reduced - I have seen posted settings as low as 1 ms.  Conversly the COFF does need to be raised in most cases, but this isn't really a negative.  Just a by product of removing the hammer drop time from the total equation.  Which is what you drew up.

[drg]

The CON thing is something I'm not 100% clear on and I don't know an easy way to figure out because in most cases the eye takes care of it. But my assumption is that, given the same LPR pressure, the mQ-equipped gun can move the bolt back faster due to not having to compress a spring, move the hammer/cocking rod mass (i.e. lower effective reciprocating mass on the backstroke). Does that make sense?

[yuu]

The CON is a little VOODOO-ish since it is a varible number based on the loader speed and not a fixed point number, unless the eye is disabled.  For the sake of the diagram I'd personally just keep the CON time the same for both time lines.

Yes, given the same LPR pressure, the block and bolt assembly would open faster.  Like you said, since you've removed a lot of forces (springs, hammer mass etc) previously required in opening the bolt.  But, you should take into account that most people will lower the LPR settings as a coutner point. So to save a brain ache, it might be safe to assume that the CON time is the same - but in all probability it is lower.

[yuu]

Updated info after a day of play.  Please see the first post for the most recent info.

[jaggy13]

I had been putting off thinking about tuning the MQ-valve until I finally got one. (trying to not think about it... like christmas morning)
Well, I had to resort to the "black marker" to get mine. Bought a gun that had one and parted it out among my teammates. (I hope no one else has to resort to that, but I just couldn't wait any more.)

For me, the eblade settings are not the most straight forward, and being a certified Microsoft professional, you would think I would love acronyms... any way, I have "translated" the settings to my own version to easily wrap my fragile mind around tuning the marker. thought I might share my "definitions" with you guys and see how they fit.
I will be tuning my marker tonight, just installed it last night, so I will post my actual settings later. for now I will use the standard on the "unofficial MQ page".

SON - 5
CDEL - 5
CON - 30
COFF - 20
CTO - 1

I have tuned many other guns using dwell and lpr's and have found there is usually a balance to the inline pressure the dwell, and the LPR pressure. So for me translating to more universal terms helps me trouble shoot it on the field. ok, here we go.

CON ~ delay that the bolt is back in the event the eye is off. nuff said, gonna trust the recommended settings unless I start chopping with the eye off. (as YUU has 50, this should not effect any other aspect of the tuning.)

COFF ~ delay before the marker fires again, allowing the bolt to come forward before it fires. (before we had a hammer and a back block/cocking rod to ensure that the bolt was forward before the valve was allowed to shoot. Now we can "mistune" the valve to shoot a tad early if needed. (or accidental.) Watch for blow back in the loader other than that, the stock 20 should be fine.

CTO ~ delay that the eye to see a ball. Again, leaving it stock.

That gets a few of the settings out of my face. now I can focus on the SON and Cdel, inline/lpr pressure.

SON ~ this is the time the sear trip noid would be activated. now is the amount of time the MQ-Valve is activated.
This is now the DWELL setting.  For those that haven’t dealt with dwell much,
Dwell is basically the duration that the valve is held open. Higher dwell means you can run a lower operating pressure, lower dwell means higher pressure. There is a balance for efficiency and consistency.

CDEL ~ this is the delay before the 5 way cocks the marker. as you can see in the "default settings" the SON and CDEL match. if you think about it, you don't really want the bolt to start on its way back before the bolt finishes firing... could have some masive blow back. (version 1.10 does not allow these settings to overlap. preventing this from happening.)

So set the cdel as low as it will go on version 1.10 and now we only have the SON HPR and LPR to tune. or for me DWELL HPR and LPR.

Now I can easily make adjustments on the field and not have to have a cheat sheet or internet connection.

If this is all basic for everyone already, I apologize, for me this was crucial for me to grasp what all the settings did and more importantly why they need to be set where they are. and of coarse if I am way off base, tell me!

[yuu]

You've almost got it.  All the important parts are right.  The CTO is time-out fuction.  The CTO timer starts when the marker is fired.  While the CTO is counting down, the board is looking for a valid paint drop in the breech, do do so it holds the breech open.  If the CTO reaches 0 before a paintdrop is detected the 5 way will be activated and the breeched closed regardless of if being laoded with paint or not.  Or maybe that what you meant...

For tuning the mQ, it doesn't matter.

Also a side note.  I set my CON to 50, so that in the event of an eye failure I can still shoot reliably and with a minimal chance of a chop.

Another thing to note now is that the LPR setting and your CON setting are more closely linked than perviously.  Having a low(er) con setting will require a highe LPR setting.  This is very easy to test for/ notice.  If at a given CON setting, when you shoot a string you note a distinct velcoty drop off as the number of balls you've shot goes up, then you need to either:
1.  Raise the LPR or
2.  Raise the CON

Though it takes a little more tweaking, it give one the option of sacrificing some cycle speed for an ultra low kick set up.  Alternatly if you don't mind a little kick, you can crank up to a blazing speed.

I've got some teching updates that I'm going to add in a new post to keep things distinct.

[yuu]

So, after some more playing I've got some updates.

First I must note a major change!  I swapped my WGP regs for AKA ones.  A SCM III and a 2 liter plus.

Initally I didn't think this would have a huge effect, but I did expect an improvement over the WGP regs... Especially my tickler that had been acting "funky"  Also I wanted an LPR that could not be adjusted w/o a tool to minimize the instances of it getting knocked out of whack.

Well, I got more than I expected.  Previously my STO reg was set to 290 psi and my SON was set to 3.4 ms.  Before installing the 2-liter I set it to 280 psi to allow for some adjustment in it's pressure.  Ha, not needed!  With the addition of the 2-liter and the SON still set to 3.4 ms my velcoity hopped up from 285'ish to over 300.  

After a few fairly consistent (reg wasn't broken in yet) hot chrno shots I began to adjust my SON setting.  Bringing it all the way down to 3.0 ms (from 3.4) reigned in the velocity to 285'ish again.

So, if yo're looking for a new reg, take a serious look at the 2-liter plus, since it seems to be grat step up from the WGP line .

Since I was concentrating on setting up the new reg and valve dwell I didn't do as much testing with different COFF setting and LPR setting combos.  But I did try 1 new one.  With the COFF set to  (and left as a constant) 27 the lpr was set above what it needed to be to prevent shoot down.  Even with the LPR over juiced a bit there was harly any kick witha tank and loader attached.  At this point I'm sure the COFF could be dropped a bit more and LPR raised a bit with no real adverse effects.

New settings:

Inline Reg:  AKA 2-liter Plus ~280 psi
SON- 3.0 ms
Cdel - 4.1 ms - As low as versions 1.10 firmware can go
Conn - 50 - set high to prevent misfeeds w/o the eye
Coff - 27 - I expect this can be lowered even more with proper LPR setting.

[jaggy13]

the definitions I quoted from the "unofficial MQ site" so they may be abridghed a bit. your definition of CTO makes more sense. Good to know about the CON and LPR pressure. My personal prefference would be for minimul kick as apposed to ultimate speed. Thanks for adding that.
I understood that your CON time was high to guard against chops w/ eye off.

I can harldy wait to go home tonight and tune it. balling both saturday and sunday this weekend, so much paint will be shot. I will report back with my findings. (this is so much better than christmas could ever be!)

*EDIT*

I just had another thought. as your dwell is raised, a lower operating pressure can be used to fine tune velocity. Obviously the "sweet spot" will need to be determined. but what weight or value would you put and matching or as close to matching the SON and CDEL values and just using a lower pressure to achieve velocity? Just seems the closer the values are the more likey you are going to be to "suction timing".

[yuu]

A word of advice:  Set the COFF a bit high, say 30, to begin with.  Then with a given LPR setting you'll need the rattle off 12-15 rapid shots with the marker aimed at the same point, and look for the balls startingto drop off too soon.  It can halp to have a buddy standing off a few fee to you side to look at the flight angles.

If there is drop off, the quick easy fix is to give the LPR a little bump up.  If you don't want to alter the LPR, then you'll have to do it the 'hard' way and up the COFF.  Increments of 2-3 ms seem to work well in this case.

[jaggy13]

I got to run my MQ-valve today, and all I can really say is.... WOW!!!

I am balling again tomorrow, so I am going to tweak my settings a little and post them up when I settle in on some.
thanks to all for the great threads. This was a breeze for me to install and get up and running because of all the great threads like this one.

[jaggy13]

tutled orracle
Reloader B setting 3
AKA sidewinder HPR
Micro rock LPR
nexus ram/QEV's
SS pump arm
delrin pull pin
SON - 4.0 (as high as I can in version 1.10)
CDEL - 4.1
CONN - 30
COFF - 30

I didn't really stray too far from the base #'s and what you recomended YUU, but I am maxing my velocity at 280. its still a little inconsistent too, but that is to be expected. the SON is as high as I can go, and the reg is also as high as I can go before the valve vents. any thoughts?

also I tried the SON at 3.0 ms and it was very inconsistent, so I kept raising and shooting all the way to 4.0. on any other gun while tuning, I would continue to raise the dwell until it at least leveled out velocity wise. then adjust the HPR. but with 1.10, I can't...

[yuu]

Hrm, I don't know what to tell you...

Personally, I found that my velocity was less stable when the pressure was higher.  It started my testing based on the settings from Ronin 23 (Mel) who is one of the inventors ofthe mQ and used it in a Karnivor.  So I figured that since I had the same marker that would be wiser than following the stock insructions.  

But, to satisfy my curiousity and to see if I could improve, I did test other settings.  Personally I found the when my pressure was higher the velocity was less stable.  

Have you tried lower pressures, say just under 300 psi?  It's probably a totally crap theory.. but I'm wondering if the higher pressure cause too much turbulence, rusulting in lower velocity and inconsistency.  

If push really comes to shove, you can send you marker into PBX and have them take a look.

[jaggy13]

ya, I thought of that too. I turned the pressure way down and crept it up looking for some consistency. got down around 200 and it was still all over the place. messed with the dwell a little too, tried your settings and compared from there. I will clean and lube it and try again this week. its still throwing alot of paint really well, so not a big deal. and I am a decent gun tech, so I would rather figure out whats wrong, as opposed to sending it off. I am not worried, its so sweet the way it is right now, I just want to see it perform perfectly... nothing wrong with that right?